TLHP 56 Lutheran Sermons and Walther's Pastoral Theology with Scott Henrich

We welcome back Pastor Scott Henrich, a WELS pastor serving in Knoxville, Tennessee.  His experiences reading historic Lutheran sermons inspired him to research Lutheranism's homiletical heritage in a way that may challenge some contemporary assumptions about the historic perception of Lutheran preaching. (See TLHP 39)

You can contact him here: scottwhenrich@gmail.com

Today he offers further thoughts and research after studying Walther's Pastoral Theology.

"While C. F. W. Walther needs no introduction for conservative American Lutherans, his Pastoral Theology does. Originally published in 1872, it was not translated into English in its entirety until 2017. (An abridged version, found under various titles, was published in 1995.) In it, Walther condenses a tradition of over 300 years of Lutheran pastoral practice. In a purely historical sense, it is a contribution of great interest, without which the non-specialist would be cut off from centuries of his heritage. Walther’s project, however, goes beyond remembrance, or even repristination. The “American” in the book’s original title (Americanisch-Lutherische Pastoraltheologie) was no accident (3). His intent was to help pastors apply that heritage, mined from God’s Word and initially expressed in the state churches of Europe, to their own time and place. To that end especially, this book is a gift to the Lutheran pastor." -S.H.

Transcript

Ben Phelps: 1:05

Welcome back to the Lutheran History podcast where we cover over 500 years of Lutheran history. Today we welcome back returning guests. Pastor Scott hemorrhage is in Knoxville, Tennessee. Welcome back Scott to the podcast today. Thank you. Yeah, great to be here. I think last time I mentioned my best qualification as a historian was sitting next to you in history class. I might have to change that. Now. I don't know if I can. Can I spoil this for your Patreon listeners? They already know. The guest right in front of me. Can I can I tell them? Go ahead. Yeah. Bob Cole is right in front of me. So I'd be following Bob Kolb up and yeah. In some people's eyes playlists. Yeah, no, he's Yeah, he's gonna come they will have heard him I had the opportunity to hear him already. By the time they they get to you. So yeah. It's also by plotting for people to become your Patreon and Oh, yes. Yeah, you get well, you got Yes. As you got a supporter, you got the preview. So as we're recording now in March, you're getting the getting the preview shot. Yeah. So today, Scott's going to talk about Walters pastoral theology. So sometimes we do this. He didn't write Walters pastoral theology, right. That's called Walters pastoral theology. But we often talk about historic books that were either historically significant in the past or historically relevant today. And we'll get into a little bit how Walter also acted as a historian writing pastoral theology, there is that aspect to it too. But Scotland review a little bit here. I just listened to our last podcast from October 2022. That's when it aired, his Lutheran preaching changed. And at the end, I asked if any other projects are gonna do anything else? And he said, Well, that's this is a one time thing. I'm not really historian. I don't see my interest take up here. And yet here you are, again, Scott. So where are you? Where are you back at a History podcast, even though you keep on saying I'm not a historian, I think you're protesting a bit too much.

Unknown: 3:03

To borrow a line from Dan Carlin, Hardcore History, he'd say, I'm not a historian, but I'm a fan of history. I'm a fan of history. So I am a fan of, and I'm the son of a fan of history, my dad is always sending me history podcasts to listen to. So I've, I like this kind of stuff. It's interesting. But then, especially when history ends up affecting your own worldview, and even your own practice, that's when you can really see the value of it. And this is very much true for the topic we're talking about today, doing this history and historical theology about homiletics how people taught and thought about preaching. That's very applicable for what I'm doing. I'm preaching sermons every week, sometimes multiple times a week. It's the most important thing I do, it really matters. I really care about it. So there was a desire to keep improving, keep studying, which led me into the conversation we'll be having today.

Ben Phelps: 4:04

That's awesome. I you know, I think, of course, I'm a firm believer history is always relevant to people. And it just takes some some time people are in denial of that, and they discover it, and they're a true believer. And I'm glad you're a true believer in the historical relevancy that the past can help us with out in everyday stuff, too. So I will of course, encourage everyone to listen again or to listen to the first time to our last conversation has Lutheran preaching changed. We talked a lot about big picture stuff, but you did some research, and he talked about historical Lutheran sermons, and made some comparisons there. But just for now, for a quick recap of that, can you briefly summarize that previous conversation and how this has led to this follow up discussion today?

Unknown: 4:48

Sure, I would be happy to the big idea was was a study of what sermons used to sound like when a Lutheran pastor got a Lutheran pulpit and to compare that to what we are used to hearing today, especially in our circles, and you might say Wisconsin Synod circles or even just conservative Lutheran circles more generally, and kind of went into it with a thesis to study the law, gospel dynamic and sermons and that's a particular term to say we're not just talking about distinguishing law and gospel. Hopefully that will always be a part of all Lutheran preaching, at least it should be. But the dynamic is this dynamic of condemnation and then resurrection. So I think about it like this, that you might have a clear sermon from a Lutheran pulpit. And it could be on any variety of texts. And hopefully they expound the text despise the text. But there's always, I guess, a subtext often in our circles, I might think about that as the Romans 323 to 24 subtext All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, but all are justified freely by his grace, and that is always kind of the foundation or the centerpiece of a Lutheran sermon. So I made a comparison, in my last paper, like Billy Graham would preach on a bunch of different texts, and we're talking about them, but really, he was always preaching on John 316. And he was totally okay with that. He'd say that's, that's what I'm here to do is evangelistic sermons. I think many in our circles would be pretty much okay with what I just characterized. Our preaching as like now that law gospel dynamic really should be the center of our sermons, my thesis, which for me is not contestable anymore. I think it's just obviously true Lutheran preaching that that style of preaching is a new development within the last maybe 50 to 70 years, that sort of intense focus on that dynamic. Historically, that's not how Lutheran is preached. And if that's a new idea to anybody, I would just invite them to read old sermons, read any old homiletics book. And if you find things that seem different to you, please send them my way. I'd love to read them. But I haven't really found much at all.

Ben Phelps: 7:06

Yeah, so that that thesis of yours. Okay, I've had a while ago. Is that only been strengthened? Now, you said it's to the point where you're doing even question isn't really a thesis that doesn't need much defense anymore. So you've grown into your convictions? It seems like

Unknown: 7:21

that is true. Yeah, just more the more I read, the more I think about it, they're there, the more obvious it's become to me, but I still want to lay some of that groundwork, because I was really surprised coming across this three, four years ago. And for any of our listeners who haven't thought this through, again, we talked about this last time, Lutherans are very historically conscious. And we try not to be innovators. So yeah, this could be a very surprising thing. And there'll be just a kind of a gut reaction to say, Now, that's not true. So it's, I think it's good to kind of talk through some of their send, lay some of that groundwork, even though Yeah, for me, it's just not really debatable.

Ben Phelps: 8:02

All right, well, thanks for that context, again, third time, and I'll stop talking about it. But listen to that the previous episode, if you want more of the, the big picture stuff, but here's just the specific guy we're talking about today. Who is you're not reading him necessarily to reinforce that thesis, but simply, I believe, to gain more insight on the whole topic of historic Lutheran preaching, I believe so we're talking about CSW? Walthers pastoral theology. We've talked about him a bunch of times, but again, just for the sake of our audience today. Who is the white What is the matter? Why is he relevant to her or discussion today?

Unknown: 8:40

Sure. So Si, FW Walther, Lutheran theologian, in the 1800s, emigrated from Germany to Missouri. He's commonly called the American Lutheran, and that sums him up pretty well in a lot of ways. Much of his theology is very self consciously Luthers theology, he's very well read and Luther, his impact is almost like Luther is impact he very much reverberates for all conservative Lutherans today. Also an attitude, right? You can be pretty trenchant in his opinions, and not always very kind to his opponents, that that all kind of plays into it, too. So yeah, towering thinker figure in American Lutheranism. And it plays in today, because I had read a bunch of his sermons before but hadn't read about kind of more formally how he thought about preaching and homiletics. He never wrote a homiletics textbook. But that his pastoral theology, there is a substantive chapter on preaching as it fits into pastoral care more generally. And it really, at least from what I can tell, it really functions as a pretty good synopsis of what his political theology was. So that really caught my interest. Okay. I want to see how he's thinking about the theological basis. That would be to the sermons that I had read from him.

Ben Phelps: 10:03

Yeah, so your focus is not necessarily on all of the pastoral theology? We looked at that, or you looked at that, but yeah, we're going to talk about the sermon section because that's that's the relevant part for our discussion today. So I something I noticed as I was reading through at least this section of pastoral theology prior to our discussion today, is that Walters also thinking not just as a theory logia not just as a preacher as a pastor, but he has his own historical mindset. Do you have anything to say about that? What we saw? Was he working as a historical theologian in this text?

Unknown: 10:40

Yeah, so he's very self consciously seen himself as an inheritor of a theological tradition of his time, 300 years of Lutheranism. But the issue was that he that tradition had existed almost entirely in Germany. So now he's, he's taking that tradition in his pastoral theology and translating that to his new context in America for his own sake, but then also as the leader of the Missouri Senate, for the sake of all of his students, as a seminary professor, for the sake of his Synod. So he's he's very much doing historical theology in the best way, not just acid dry, kind of abstract facts of history, but learning from the past or learning from the best of the past, and then seeking them to apply in the present. So what you're getting that you're much more of a historical theologian than I am no, that's good. And I think it's good because you're, you're emphasizing the practicality of it.

Ben Phelps: 11:39

And yeah, he's doing that, I think any you mentioned to like, he just quotes a lot from from Luther, but also, he's referencing dead guys a lot. They're not just biblical authors, right? He's, he's referencing other other Lutheran preachers, too, as you, as you said, to transfer to communicate that Lutheran preaching heritage and, you know, it might be said to he's trying to recover something, he didn't necessarily have the advantage of himself growing up, kind of in the era of rationalism, and some extreme forms of quietism. You know, what drew him to Martin Stephen was, this guy's kind of unique, that wasn't commonplace, but now he's trying to make what he views as common Lutheran theology and preaching practice, or at least what it should be. But he's also backing it up with historical text. So he's, I don't know if he's doing necessarily Lutheran Renaissance, trying to get back to the the Reformation or the Lutheran orthodox heritage, but that's kind of what I picked out of the text.

Unknown: 12:40

Yeah, and just, you mentioned how much he quotes Luther, that's a value. We're going to talk mostly about the preaching chapter, but a value of the entire book. Obviously, Martin Luther did not write the pastoral theology. But Walter was very well read and Luther and pulls together all of the different Lutheran quotes Luthers quotes about pastoral theology and applies them for us. So it's really useful for someone like me, I'm probably not going to read all of what are we up to 70 different works from Martin Luther. But while there, it gives us a really good synopsis of how Luther viewed pastoral theology. So there's a huge value in this book, just for that. It's like reading the best of Luther on pastoral theology. So yeah, we'll talk about the preaching section. But the entire book was valuable.

Ben Phelps: 13:27

Yeah. So let's get into that preaching section. I know you're eager to talk about it. And please take your time. This is the guy that the meat of the of the topic today, what were some of his main points on on preaching, but can you summarize for us?

Unknown: 13:42

Sure, yeah. His first one is, preaching really, really matters in a way that might surprise some people, even we all take our sermon seriously, at least I hope, but he very clearly says right off the bat. Preaching is the chief means of grace. This is the chief way in which God distributes the merits of Jesus and the blessings of Christ on his people through preaching through public proclamation of His Word. And this is then obviously the chief task of the pastor, that he's a pastor, his most important job is getting in the pulpit and proclaiming God's word to God's people. And I say that might be surprising. Maybe it's not I mean, that is what matters most that's the joke we get right? We work one day a week. Some of that joke comes from the recognition of how important it is of pretty by preaching on that one day a week. But there is a in some ways a move against that people will see Holy Communion as Yeah, the most concentrated form of the gospel or baptism is really the core of our identity. That's, that's really good, where we're not playing the sacraments often against each other. But to just highlight preaching the incredible gift that it is that it is the most important thing even that happens on Sunday morning. And Walter talks about that. He says, It doesn't matter how good you are at the liturgy. Or you might say today, how well you can chant or whatever it might be even how good you are at pastoral care in general. If you're a bad preacher, you're going to be way less effective and way less of a blessing to God's people. Maybe not just bad isn't how talented you are, but if you're not taking this job, seriously, and that's where Walther can, he really comes out swinging where he will say this is because this is so important. but there's also the quickest path the pastor has to guilt and condemnation, if he's not taking this seriously, if he's lazy, yes, it's a great list of 19th century side hustles that you might get caught up in saying, Yeah, you're caught up and all that other stuff. If you're busy and you're not carefully studying for your sermons, giving it your absolute best. They're cursed. You aren't being you're misusing this really important office God has given to you. So just with the time you put into it, the seriousness with which you take it, he talks about writing out your sermons as young pastors don't just fly off the cuff. Maybe when you get older, you can go more often outline, but take this really seriously. That nothing can ever replace proper preaching is what he says. And I've heard anecdotes of that from different congregants, I've talked to you they'll talk about their former pastor hurt, or this I thought one guy that, yeah, he was kind of a jerk to us. But he was a really good preacher, and he was a blessing to our church. That's, that's a good thing to keep in mind.

Ben Phelps: 16:38

Yeah, I've heard those kind of stories to and you know, his list of side hustles they're not some of them are dated, but others, you know, I think he even highlighted in your notes like scholarly pursuits. And you know, here I am doing continuing to add, you know, it's true. You got to prioritize things and you can pastor can easily start to justify while I'm doing this, and spending time with my people, or I need to take care of myself, I need to have some recreational time and you know, watching sports or hunting or fishing, whatever it might be, you know, that's how I do that for my people. But how quickly those those justifications can turn into distractions from the the high calling of the of the preacher that that Walter's pointing out. So yeah, I don't think too many pastors can read that section, and walk away totally unscathed. And say no problems here. Nothing for me to think about. So yeah, he cuts to the heart. If there's anything there. Yeah. And it definitely fires you up, I think in a good way. Yeah. There's some guilt. Okay, I should work harder. But, man, what an awesome blessing. So as we record, I just finished up writing my Easter sermon.

Unknown: 17:44

Man, I get to stand in front of a bunch of people and preach God's word. That's, that's an incredible thing. Even in our culture today, no one that that just doesn't happen. 100 200 people get in a room and listen to a guy talk. And pay attention, at least a little bit. That's completely unique. And we have that in church. And we get to talk about something that matters more than anything else, man that it really fires you up. And it might notes to as Lenski wrote a homiletics book, and he'll talk about how churches can be so beautiful. But pastors can get in the pulpit and preach on an ugly sermon, what a terrible thing. So to think about the beauty and the power of the message of the Word of God, and then just highlights the absolute privilege it is to proclaim that word publicly to God's people.

Ben Phelps: 18:34

Yeah, so that's just kind of he's just getting started, right? He's just getting warmed up about the preachers attitude about his vocation, this this task. What does he get into specifics now about preparing a sermon presenting it?

Unknown: 18:49

Yeah, right off the bat. The first point seems kind of obvious sermons must contain and solely contain God's word. You're not going to preach on anything else except the Word of God. But then how you apply God's word to God's people how you present it must be in a pure, unadulterated fashion. So this is the only time he directly mentions law and gospel. And I think I mentioned that in the last podcast, that was a surprise to me how, how little historical theology, theologians or theologians in the past talked about law and gospel where today we might think about that as the primary thing we should be thinking about when we think about sermons. We'll get into that more as we go. But for wealthier, he sees law and gospel not as necessarily what you're doing when you're preaching, you're not getting out there and doing lawn gospel. But instead, this is what you distinguish as you are presenting God's word to God's people, you are careful to distinguish law and gospel, you're really conscious of the order of salvation, how these texts apply to different people at different points in in their spiritual journey to think that through so both are does talk about long gospel right off the bat. But it's notable that that was for only one paragraph, and then one Luther quote, and that's it any very quickly moves on to what he says, is the chief thing you're doing when you get into a pulpit, so we can talk about that but anything on on that first point? No, I think that's it's a point well taken.

Ben Phelps: 20:23

I think you mentioned in the in the hinoki homiletics. Right. Log gospel also gets like one

Unknown: 20:27

And page ish or something like that. Yeah. Just there's maybe a pattern there of Yep. It's important. Maybe it's assumed we already know this already. I don't know. But there's something more going on here. So yeah, what what is his outcome that is outlined, but what is his await method of way of presenting the Word of God? Sure. So the primary thing you're thinking you get into a pulpit, you're preaching God's word. But what does that mean? Well, the first thing you're thinking as you are teaching, so he gets into what was the primary way of thinking about preaching for 400 years of Lutheranism, the fivefold use of Scripture. So for a second Timothy three and Romans 15, you're teaching your reproof as reproof against false doctrine. It's correcting sins, your training and righteousness, and you're comforting people. That's the fivefold use. But these aren't all seen as equally important. I guess the Walther is very clear as the foundation for everything else is teaching, clearly expository God's word and clearly, you might say, delineating the teachings of Scripture. That is the most important thing a preacher is doing when he gets into the pulpit is teaching. And that's maybe self evident, right? You have to lay a foundation before you start to apply things, but maybe it's not self evident if you listen to a lot of servants in our world today. So a quote from Walther is that no matter how rich a sermon is, and admonitions, rebukes and encouragement, if there is no teaching in it, then it is nevertheless an empty meager sermon. It's admonitions, rebukes, and encouragement, are floating in thin air. So people walk into a church, and you just start throwing things like do this, do that and feel bad for this or feel good because of this. If they're not rooted in the text that's in front of you, and the doctrines of Scripture just kind of bounce right off of you. They don't really mean anything. So you have to more patiently build a foundation of really good solid teaching, before you go swinging away. And then this is the path to the true blessing of a sermon. So while there is very clear that this is a gift, or revealing the thoughts of God to God's people, and that really does something, he says the true growth of a congregation in Christ is not possible without sermons that have thorough teaching in them. Whoever permits this to be absent is not faithful in his ministry, even if he appears to be using himself up in the Facebook here for the souls and trust it to him with his fervent, steady admonitions, reproofs or other encouragements. And I'm belaboring this a little bit, because, in our context, today, at least as pastors, we kind of get this this idea that preaching and teaching are distinct from each other. And that's a recent doctrinal development, at least as far as I can tell, from Gearheart 30. And I think it's useful to think about those as, in some ways different were preaching is that direct application and teaching is more a step removed from that. But this highlighted for me that that distinction is just not a historic one. It's not common in the Lutheran confessions, or Lutheran theologians, and not a biblical one, either, at least as far as I can tell. At least using those categories. And Walters is really clear. Teaching is the most important thing. And again, sometimes in our circles will say, Yeah, teaching and that's for Bible study. Yeah. sermons. That's for preaching. Right. We hear that a lot. And if you start to talk more about doctrinal details, say that for Bible study was very clearly passed on to us. So this section, what was a bit of a surprise to me just how serious seriously, Walter takes this and how important it is.

Ben Phelps: 24:19

Yeah, to that point, you know, I've heard that applied outside of the circles you and I grew and learned together that yeah, saving for Bible study, and no doubt, there's some times where, okay, that's really, really tricky. Or there might be some emotions involved, or it's really complex. And you probably want to have the opportunity to have dialogue with your students to make sure they understand you the right way. But I think, in my opinion, now, it could be over over done sometimes, right? Where the teaching Act, the teaching process is best regulated to Bible study. And, you know, practically speaking, sadly, you know, I wish we the your attendance on Sunday morning for worship would be identical to your Bible study. But that's also, sadly, typically not the case a lot, you get a lot of drop off for people. So if you want to teach your people, as you said to that broad audience, now that the sermons have been placed to do it, and Walter is saying, you need to do it to have a sermon with content.

Unknown: 25:17

Yeah, and well, there's points that can kind of circle around here. So later on, he talks about laying out the whole counsel of God, we might get into some more details of that later. But he says if you don't include part of God's counsel in your preaching, you're basically ripping that away from God's people who deserve to have all of the counsel of God. And that's a serious thing to think, Okay, what am I presenting to God's people? And if I'm saying, I'm going to say that to Bible study, another way of saying that is I'm going to rip that teaching away from 80% of my church, or whatever our average is, I think, usually, it's yeah, maybe about a fifth of our church actually goes to Bible study in our circles. So yeah, again, well, Thursday Bible study itself wasn't really a thing. There's a slightly different context. But man, this point, I think really stands if you're going to do serious application of God's word that must be built on a foundation of solid teaching.

Ben Phelps: 26:17

That and just to add one more little historical point on top, you know, Luther, and many others we're, we're known to do, we still have the catechetical sermons, they maybe weren't necessarily your Sunday morning sermon, but

Unknown: 26:31

they would preach sermons specifically to teach maybe a specific audience or just to teach in general. So very common, sometimes it would almost be the whole point of the sermon. All right, so let's got one down four more to go. I fully use. Let's get going more more quickly through these these are all less important than than teaching. But an obvious corollary of presenting the truth is refuting the a falsehood. So the next uses of Scripture is reproving. false teaching. If you love the truth, you hate falsehood. This is, yeah, well, while there talks about, we have to be really careful. As we do this, we want to be emotionally sensitive and cognizant of what our life issues for our people because they might not have that right not be really worried about something that you're worried about. I heard an anecdote from a pastor that he was so concerned to include so much apologetics in his sermons, and he'd always talk about how these passages from Scripture are verifiable, and they stand up to scrutiny. And here are all these different ways people try to tear away the truth from these passages. And as people said to him, I didn't even know peep, some people didn't believe that the Red Sea wasn't really parted, or that the flood didn't happen. And you kind of opened the door for them to doubt some of God's word very inadvertently. So yeah, we want to be, I think, really wise as we do this. And that impressed me as I read this section, when I think about Walter, at least, maybe just based on how scary his picture is, I picture him as just, you know, yelling at people, and this is the truth and all you terrible people who don't get it. But he always talks here in a very emotionally and spiritually sensitive way to have a live understanding of what live issues are for people to carefully refute those. But not to get out over your skis, right to try to talk about things you don't really know or issues that are deeper than really your understanding. This is a good one and one I'm actively trying to apply to my preaching too. And it's a struggle for us. Because our people today aren't what people are struggling with it. It's not always obviously false doctrine. In a way it might have been at Wall Thursday, like the dangers of Methodism. For us, it's more secularism, which is a false theology in itself. But it's yeah, it's good to think through if I'm going to present the truth I do need to refute the the lies that Satan is still spreading in our in our world.

Ben Phelps: 29:09

Yeah, you're talking about his, what you what impressed you about him here. If you look at him, he's definitely a man who's mature. And so this is really later on in his life. I think a key thing that you recognize when it went to Lutheran theologians, skilled and good, he knows how to talk about all the issues that were the balance needs to be found, rather than this is the only right way kind of reducing it to one one or two things right. He's got a much fuller picture here. Yeah.

Unknown: 29:41

Yeah, definitely. And then to take that kind of general Okay, refuting false teaching out there. But then very much related to that as the next one your your rebuking sins, that people are again, struggling with. And this is again, where He's surprisingly, emotionally sensitive. He quotes I'll see an area where he talks about how we have to be careful not to be bitter as you refute things. And because if you're bitter, then you Ambetter the minds of your hearers you turn them away unnecessarily, but instead you're calm, you're you're patient. You had a really good piece of advice said if you're talking about something you know is going to be sensitive. Think it through ahead of time, write it out carefully. And even you might even say maybe even practice what you're going to say weigh the words weigh their impact, because yeah, when you rebuke Eid sins, you're often getting that idols that are, if you're doing it right, you're getting that idols that are very close to people's hearts. So you want to do whatever you can to avoid unnecessary hardening of their hearts. And you can do that if you exaggerate if you speak over the top if you're not careful in your words, so rebuke sins, but do it carefully and with the goal of we need people to repent, it's not with a goal of just making yourself feel like you know, Jeremiah, or whoever of the prophets.

Ben Phelps: 30:59

Yeah, you know, this is a good point, as you reproving you know, or rebuking false doctrine that may be seen as like an external thing, unless you got like a rampid heresy that's become popular in your congregation, which usually doesn't happen. Maybe an individual maybe listens to the wrong podcast, or for some reasons, watching bad sermons from other places online, and it's influencing them, right. It's probably that can be as much a personal issue but this part rebuking since the kind of gotta treat this with like surgical care and precision, right, you're going to be touching some nerves, like you said, if you're doing this, right. But you have to do it anyway. Right. So to kind of save and serve the the hearer. Yeah. So good, quote, good quotes on that section, too.

Unknown: 31:44

Sure. And then yeah, these really flow together in a way that I don't know if Paul really intended them to flow together in Second Timothy, it'd be interesting to learn more about the reception history of this fivefold use. But this flows right into training and righteousness. So you've taught people a bunch of stuff, reviewed false teaching, rebuked specific sins. But now you need to encourage people to use the good teachings that you have given them. And this is this analogy gets abused a little bit. But the best way I could think of this, as I read Walters, he wants you to be like a coach, you're thinking about yourself, almost like, you know, the cross country coach who's yelling at his runners to run something, like they obviously already want to run fast. But you're there to help them and encourage them to run even harder. And that's how he wants you to think about your people you want, they want to follow God's word. And they want to he says they want to live for the one who died for them. They want to be renewed in his image. So if they hear the voice of their gracious God in their pastor, they do not want to resist it. So think about it, like, like a coach, or my youngest daughter is learning to walk and we're standing right there and encouraging her to walk. That's how pastors should act. And yeah, this hit home for me too, because

Ben Phelps: 33:03

sometimes in our circles, the law can get presented, always with a caveat of Yeah, you know, you can't do this anyway. And you're not going to be perfect. And well, if you do keep it, don't think you're earning your own righteousness by doing it. All those caveats with God's word. And that's very different from the approach. Walter is advocating here that you talk to them, like Christians want to follow God's word, you encourage them. And then while they're sites, Luther, who cites Paul talks about how Paul does this. So so often in his letter is, even to the point where it might seem like He's overdoing it all is always coaching up his congregations, as he might say, to renew themselves in God's image to live as children of God to put their faith into practice in their in their daily lives. So this is something that, yeah, we don't just present the truth and say, take it or leave it. Now you encourage them to take it up and make it their own. Yeah, and again, some good insight here some good balance, right? You know, a lot of lot of people might say, well, it's natural for a Christian to want to do the right thing. You know, just just tell reaffirm the good news to them, and they'll naturally do it anyway. While he may say it's, it's not an either or so often, it turns into it's both adequate, yes, they will, their new men created in them will naturally want to follow God's law, but they also need that, that coaching is are you saying that training and righteousness that that character being built up right? All the way Paul talks a lot, right that you need some direction, you need to be told that to after all, you still have a sinful nature that needs to be kept in check while you're encouraging the the new man so it's both that natural and and encouragement thing. And author is making that point here, which is, which is a key thing for a lot of guys to remember. Is they're prepping their sermons. Yeah. And then yeah, basically, a way of thinking about what you just said is, this is built on a foundation of really good teaching. You're not just coming out swinging, saying, Do this and try harder. But you're laying out the text of Scripture, the comfort and the hope that's found there, the

Unknown: 35:12

gift of Jesus for us and then the goodness of God's law, you're explaining how this is actually a blessing to you. So that all that is necessary if Christians are going to really want to live like Christians, we don't just expect that for them to have that desire, not in a vacuum, but with with no teaching that propels them to have that desire. Again, this is all built on that careful teaching. But yeah, here and then all throughout Walthers pastoral theology. Yeah, it just it, I guess kind of surprised me how he was really he didn't, I can't think of a single time where he said, you know, you can't do this perfectly anyway, he really expects for God's people to grow God's people to practically be able to follow God's law in their daily lives. Of course, there are technical caveats there, they can't do it perfectly. Romans seven still exists, but he doesn't talk in a way that is, in my experience, pretty common in our circles and a sense of encouraged somebody but you know, you can't really do it anyway. No, just confidently speak to them. Like we heard Jesus say in one of our in our gospel reading for Lent five, if you want to be my disciple, you hate your life, and you hate your life in this world and you, that's how you gain eternal life. Jesus doesn't say, you know, you're not going to be fully committed to me anyway, you're not perfect, you actually just assumes that, that we will be and speaks about that as a necessary thing. For those who would follow him.

Ben Phelps: 36:44

Now, he doesn't seem to be promoting kind of this the status quo idea, I come to church one way and bothered for a little bit, but then I'm told everything's gonna be okay in the end, and I kind of just revert back to that right. Good preaching should impact the hearer and produce a change in heart and mind wherever it may be. Maybe applicable, including this this last point, which is the save the best for last, I guess.

Unknown: 37:11

It is comfort and hope. So while there is quote is using the word of God for teaching is the foundation of every sermon, using it for comfort and hope must be the constant goal. Romans 15, for these things that were written were written to give us encouragement. And it's notable how author talks about this encouragement, we definitely right the center of our encouragement is the forgiveness of sins one by Jesus on the cross. Walther was very cognizant that Lutherans view this, as you know, the chief article upon which the church stands or falls, the blood bought forgiveness, of Jesus. But that's not all that is meant by comfort and hope that God would give you some of it is more general, life is really hard. And God is on your side, he's going to get you through it. And obviously, you know that God is on your side, because your sins are forgiven through Christ. But there's this, I guess, full throated comfort and hope for all of the Christians life. This reminded me of some ways. Sometimes Martin Luther talks about, you know, the Gospel according to the first article. So not just second article gospel, Your sins are forgiven, but have a full picture of a God who provides for his children who guides them. All that is included in comfort and hope and gospel proclamation, including even the hope to keep doing good works. That's part of this comfort and hope, while they're talks about you give them hope that their works, good works done in the Lord are not done in vain improvement, and doing these works is possible. And so this is something that Walter is always aiming at, or encouraging us to aim at, no matter what we're preaching from. He says, There is no passage of scripture in which a true evangelical preacher cannot extract rich encouragement for believing Christians, which is very true. And we've talked plenty about, you know, avoiding cookie cutter sermons. So how do we do that? Well, that's why we talk about this full throated encouragement, God has lots of different ways to give us hope and his word. So we booked for that hope in different passages of Scripture, and then very willingly excitedly pass that on to God's people. God is God is on your side. And we know all this salt are built on that foundation of justification we have through the light by faith in Christ.

Ben Phelps: 39:29

All right. Yeah, good. So five parts. Hopefully everyone could rattle them off as you're listening to this I haven't memorized if not just kind of listen to it again, or you know, pick up a copy of pastoral theology but an excellent and deeper way to actually be able to preach the text with also embracing the that maybe the individual nuance, right, you have to have that content there with the teaching and take it from there.

Unknown: 39:55

While there is he's presenting this, this kind of, in a sense, obvious. This is how Lutheran think about preaching this fivefold use. But that doesn't mean it can't be abused, which is, yeah, I mean, we've been teachers and preachers for long enough we know people can take our words and just suck all the nuance out of them. Oh, Pastor, I got what you meant. Had to have happy to be a great way recently, like no actually wasn't talking about the war in Israel when I was preaching that point, but you took it that way. Yeah, he talks about how people preachers will think about this fivefold use and then abuse this paradigm. Like they're playing a harp with only five strings. And they'll just, you know, mechanically pluck the five strings as they're preaching. And that's funny because that reminds me a bit of, you know, the the criticism I might have of long gospel preaching where it can, no one actually teaches you to mechanically approach every text with law, that gospel. As far as I can tell, no one actually says we should preach like that. But we still hear it frequently. The same thing is true with this, while there's very careful to say, you know, don't just apply this paradigm mechanically, no matter what the text is, he quotes, you might say, the OG Lutheran have Leticia and rombach already in the 1700s. And he's talking about how people already back then were abusing the fivefold use of Scripture. So he's, he's cognizant of the abuses that are possible with this sort of system. But he still finds great value in it. And he still just assumes this is what Lutherans believe preaching is all about, because these are the uses scripture claims for itself. And second, Timothy, and Romans 15.

Ben Phelps: 41:42

Yeah. Good. Doing a little, you know, the way Walter talks, I think, when he he's talking about what Lutheran is do he almost always sounds like he assumes, well, of course, that's what all true, all true Lutheran think, or do this as part of his style, but I guess you can just say he's a confident guy convinced of his convictions. But there's obviously like you said, historical precedent to this, that he's not just making this up and saying, of course, everyone's gonna see it my way. But, yeah, so good advice there, right. This isn't just, oh, I had a two part template. Now I have a five part template, and it will be I'll fix all my problems as a preacher, but

Unknown: 42:21

look very much as the arbiter of true Lutheranism. And very much like Luther, like, I'm gonna lecture the Pope, because why not? That's what Luther did. Walter will lecture everybody on what true Lutheranism is all about. So he takes us it's fivefold use of Scripture, and then he gives us some more nuance. As he goes on, in his writing talks about I think the the real one I want to highlight is how sermons must contain the whole counsel of God for their salvation of their hearers. So this is getting some more meat on that bone of Scripture. There's our sermons are built on careful teaching. While there makes a lot of what Paul says to the Ephesian elders think x 20, about how he's innocent of their blood. Why? Well, because he did not withhold, or you talk to them all of Scripture, all of the teachings of God's Word, he passed that on to them. And so for us as preachers to realize we have the responsibility to preach the text right in front of us, that's very important. But then also in a, you might say, more holistic way to think about all of Scripture. And we had the responsibility to pass all of that on to God's people, as well. And this is something that requires some nuance and some careful planning, and we shouldn't just expect that this will happen. So and he talks about how a careful preacher should think ahead to the different texts that are coming. And then kind of have two different things running in his mind a list of the major doctrines that people should know. And then also a list of the different texts that are coming up in the lectionary and then try to fit those together. Which is again, a different way of approaching preaching or even thinking about it. I had never thought about this before reading Walther, but, yeah, you think about Yeah, also in the book of Acts, the new converts who said we've never even heard there was a Holy Spirit. No, never never knew that. Okay to think about somebody who listens to my preaching over the course of an entire year. What doctrines would they say, Oh, I'd never even heard that there was an election to grace. Or I'd never even heard maybe a more contemporary issue about how evil abortion really is, even though they've listened to me for 60 sermons. Okay, so to think more holistically about preaching, which kind of a meta theme through all of this is that we don't see our sermons just as one off of that it's a one off proclamation of law and gospel or whatever. But it's an ongoing conversation that God is having to his people through us as the pastor. And so we're thinking about this entire menu of, of teachings. And so the quote, if an attentive here has perhaps already listened to a preacher for years without being informed of important things that belong to Christian faith and life, then this would not be an insignificant charge against the preacher. Maybe a bit of an awkward translation there but you whereas if people listened to you for years, they should have a pretty good, pretty holistic picture of Christian faith and Christian life. And then he has a list of different teachings that they should know about. It's pretty detailed, you'll talk about things that are a little anachronistic the binding nature of engagement, but also how parents and children should relate to each other. If people listen to you for a year, they should have a pretty good picture of what a Christian family should look like. All that I found

Ben Phelps: 45:59

interesting and inspiring, too. And hopefully, it can integrate all of this into my preaching. Yeah, so I guess just kind of pause here. How, what are the practical issues here? You know, I can think of the kind of half the whole counsel of God, you have to keep the big picture the story of salvation, from creation through crucifixion and restoration and all that other stuff. Not to make it trivial. But yeah, there's a lot in there. But you also want to be faithful to the text and not just tell the same exact story every time. But you also need to cover all the doctrine. Is that Is that feasible? Is that realistic? You know how I would Walter do that, I suppose if his goal is to actually do some teaching

Unknown: 46:42

in the sermon, and that's a big deal. That becomes a little more recognizable. Okay. I can see why you're bringing up all this, this doctrinal stuff, if you're if you're teaching, but there any thoughts on that? Kind of just came to me now? Who is it's an immense task who is sufficient? Or who is sufficient for it? Yeah, this is this is something that we should put approach our preaching with fear and trembling, and recognizing our inadequacy, because that yeah, there's some practical considerations. Yep. They often went to two sermons a week back and well, Thursday, he preached for 45 minutes or an hour. So yeah, they had more time. Yep, we're really careful to be textual in our sermons not just to bring in teachings from all over the place that have nothing to do with what we're what text is actually saying in front of us. Yeah, so can we actually do everything Walther is saying, No. And we'll see more of that as we go. He'll talk about every sermon also has to contain the entire order of salvation. So even if someone only heard one sermon in their life, they could be saved. Well, I just got my am I supposed to do that too. But well, there is a seminary professor, and this is sometimes how professors talk there'll be maybe bombastic is not the word, but they'll just, you know, put it all out there and lay it all out on the line. And not always speak with tons of nuance, because I think at least in part, we can take advantage of that nuance. Well, I'm never going to cover all the doctrines of Scripture anyway. So what's the point in carefully thinking about which doctrines I'm covering and not covering? I'll just do none of that and talk about the same old things week after week. Yeah, we won't there doesn't want to give us that sort of out. I don't think he wants to challenge us. Yeah. But I suppose the YouTube gave us the simple answer to that. Well, if you preach for an hour, every week, you can cover you know, three to four times as much as you normally would anyway. So there you go. Yeah, that's, that's the takeaway. Hmm. Okay. We should preach for longer. That's been one of my takeaways, as I study this, if this is the most important thing I'm doing, you know, we can't be legalistic about it. But sure, yeah. Are we gonna give it 12 minutes? Probably not.

Ben Phelps: 48:57

Especially if six of those minutes is the your sports illustration or whatever it might be to? People's Yes. I love sports illustrations. Well, you know, normally I, I avoid them like the plague because they don't have anything to speak from experience. But I got the Hebrews 12 texts in front of me for Sunday, and I kind of have to mention running right. Thanks. To be textual. Alright, so apart from my intrusion there, what else are we going to say about this whole counsel of God thing, you know, so we just I didn't interrupt because it's already so much, but it keeps on adding more to the list. Anything else you want to highlight from that long term project? It would be fascinating to try to do this with a three year lectionary. There is there's a list out there for the one year lectionary that lines up different doctrines with different Sundays and texts.

Unknown: 49:52

We maybe are helping ourselves because we keep changing our election area. So we just changed it again in the Wisconsin Synod. But it would be really interesting to sit down and be systematic about it. But then yeah, careful as we approach it. We don't want to use the text as a pretext, right to teach something else. We want to really be textual. But it would be interesting to think through how to do this more. Yeah. And then this is just part of what we're doing in in a sermon. But then yeah, Walter does keep going. He does what I just mentioned. Say that yeah, as you're doing this, the gospel still has to predominate. sermon should contain the way to salvation, that they should carefully exhort people to lives of good works. He keeps any more details on to what we're talking about. But then, yeah, interesting where he goes from that he, he also makes sure that we know, this sort of our preaching needs to be contemporary. And it needs to do to correspond with what people need, which he gives some really appropriate caveats to say this isn't just felt leads, giving people what they think they need, but what they actually need. So he's confident to kind of tell us we know better than our people what they need, they need God's word, all of it, even if they don't think they do. Sometimes, though, you give them the basics, more meat or more milk, other times it is more meat. But then we have when in doubt, we go more toward that lower denominator talks about Luther his famous quote, they're preaching to the milkmaids. That's true, but then knowing your people if they're ready for deeper, more intense teaching, give it to them. And this is, yeah, as a preacher, this is why preaching is so hard. I look at my congregation. And I see people who know the Bible on just an incredibly deep level, they know everything and they know the doctrines they know, Greek, they know all of this, okay? Challenge them with God's word. Also look out at God's people. And yeah, it's biblical knowledge has really fallen off a cliff. In our, in our culture in our society, they don't know who Abraham there's who Moses, there's what, how to define things like sin and grace. So trying to hit all of this all at the same time, who is equal to this task? Nobody, ultimately, but just because we can't do it perfectly, doesn't give us an outlet to not be careful and think these things through. So we're preaching sermons that really apply to the people right in front of us. But this applied, as I was thinking this through with putting our sermons on the internet, that we're trying to, we're not just preaching these sermons to look good to the people out there in the world, to our pastor, friends to our, you know, I think a lot of beginning pastors are kind of in their heads preaching to their homiletics professor and want to make him happy. Now we're preaching to the people right in front of us who are looking in the eyes, we're not looking at the camera, looking at God's people and giving them the comfort of God's Word, the encouragement God has for them the expectations to live according to God's word. So again, a lot of kinda at least surprising to me a teaching of not just abstract teaching reach things that really matter to them, that really apply to their lives that they really care about. But then, yeah, not too long. So you said yeah, don't preach too long, either. Okay. I thought you wanted me to do everything, every sermon? Yeah, well, he's just he's been a he's been a seminary professor giving us really high a really high bar here. Not too long, but also well structured. And that's, that's a key here too. We don't want to just lob a bunch of teachings out there kind of smorgasbord style, but we want to carefully think through how we're presenting God's word to God's people, giving them well structured sermons, so they can remember them more easily so they can not get frustrated as they're listening to you. It's kinda the court like, fathers don't exasperate your children. preachers don't do that either by being sloppy in your preaching. But then he ends with with saying, the kind of the big picture, aim at their hearts, aim at their consciences. That's what you're aiming at as a preacher. So yeah, there's a lot of big picture ideas, a lot of challenges for us as preachers, but then this the simple idea, we're preaching to give God's word God's comfort, God's teaching to the hearts and consciences of his people. He also kind of keeps it simple right there at the end in a way that I really appreciate it.

Ben Phelps: 54:29

Yeah, so much more we we couldn't say on the on the content part. But he did a good job, I think summarizing for for us there. It's, it's it's hard to see how this isn't, isn't practical yet. Again, the appreciation of the historic value that and I think that's just a testament to the nature of the church, right, God, God's word, and God's people are going through almost all the same things throughout the ages. Right. And we could find, find ourselves at home reading this kind of stuff, and especially as pastors, right, the two of us talking today, how do I preach a sermon, and we have a lot of so many late listeners to whom this isn't their daily struggle, but just to realize, maybe two, I don't say appreciate your pastor is not the goal of this, but maybe that's one facet from it. You know, there is a lot of work behind it. And when you do have a good sermon, or even an excellent sermon, just realize that that usually doesn't just happen on its own right there. There's some work behind there. That's why we need pastors. And we need more pastors too. If you're listening to this and kind of thought, Oh, can I do this? I would say don't let this overwhelm you and say it's impossible. Walthers standards are gonna say are not necessarily humanly possible, nor should they be necessarily this this interview, you must hold yourself to every week, but just see that that there's a lot going on here. But it's a lot of good work going into these servers. Yeah, no, that's, that's great. And there's,

Unknown: 55:59

yeah, it's a high bar. But yes, if it's making us feel bad author has a great quote in there from a lengthen, where he basically said, If preaching was something easy to systematize, then I could do it. But it's not. So yeah. But like that was very good at systematically laying things out for people. But preaching isn't just that it's knowing people, it's you might say, nowadays, we'll talk about exercising your audience and exercising the text. Walter is very much talking about all of that. That's what makes preaching so yeah, at least for me, endlessly interesting and fascinating. It's why reading books about preaching is really important. And so this was, oh, really helpful to think through. And then again, kind of with a quote that got got me fired up, as I read it. Walter talked at one point about how there's, there's always this problem of corrupt of sin that's corrupting. And the only hope people have is the word of God. And in every era, we have particular needs to hear God's word. And that is why God wants there to be preaching. So his word can be the source, the rule, the star for people's lives of all Ultra doctrine. This is the medication for sickness as of soul, you can apply this to their condition and to all humanity. This is the light that drives out all the darkness that tries to penetrate it. Salt that resists the spreading right of the world, the dam and wall that sets limits to the penetrating stream of corruption. Create quote, and yeah, that just fires you up. What, what an awesome gift. We are. The ultimate, yeah, our we have doesn't come from us. But it comes from the word of God, that does stem the rot of sin and heals. Right, it gives us hope, even in the face of death. Yeah.

Ben Phelps: 57:47

An excellent reminder for the importance of all this again. Yeah. And it's always a joy to read someone who can write well, right. And I think that's, that's part of your attraction to this. He's just got, you know, whether he's a little little too feisty sometimes maybe to our modern sensibilities, it still makes a good read and makes you think and appreciate what he's doing here. All right, so we got through a pretty good outline of the content, what he's aiming at, but were there any parts of this research or reading of this text that surprised or excited you or just something random, that spurred your interest to comment? And

Unknown: 58:25

yeah, I can clean I've exhaustively thought this through. But it's interesting to think about this book as a parallel and even in some ways as a corrective to the Walther book that is far more common in our circles, that's law and gospel, the proper distinction between law and gospel. Last time, we keep referencing that, but we talked about how we kind of have this caricature view of wall theory and preaching that it's law than gospel condemnation and forgiveness. But this was, you know, a much more nuanced view of preaching. Not that not that caricature by any means. And in some ways, it doesn't contradict law and gospel, but it's just the tone is different. And if you think about when he when Walter delivered the lectures that became long gospel, it was at the end of his life as he was dealing with personal tragedy, his wife died right in the middle of it. So yeah, he's going to be talking, I guess, about theology and a much more existential way. But then in this book and pastoral theology that we're talking about today, it's a more holistic picture of the entire life of the church. So if you're, if you're talking to somebody whose wife is dying, or if you're preaching a funeral sermon, yep. Very, like existential law, gospel, death, resurrection, preaching. That's exactly what you need. But if you're thinking about the entire life of a church, everything that people hear what what we all need, then then it's going to be of a broader scope. All right, guys, for the preacher. He's aiming at something a little bit bigger than that. So yeah, I found this interesting. And in comparison to long gospel, I don't I don't think they really contradict, but they do complement each other. Yeah, that's a good way to put it and we've said it before, but just remember long gospel, you didn't publish it, right? Those are students shorthand notes that you know, he kind of I wouldn't say cult like status, but maybe approached that you know, getting a Youth League named after you and statues and campus all this stuff.

Ben Phelps: 1:00:27

Have you know Walter this Walter that? Was there a bit of a bit bunch of putting that up on a pedestal beyond what he had intended? Perhaps so why don't you read also at least what he did in 10? People to, to read in printed form? And yeah. Good points there. Yeah. Anything else you want to talk about? That sparked some thoughts from you?

Unknown: 1:00:50

Yeah, just Yeah, as we absolutely talked about this, how we talked last time about how we got to where we are in our preaching. But then just, I don't know, if it's an encouragement, it's not really my again, my place to tell everybody what they should be doing. But just to recognize, like, we're preaching so often, that it can become really easy to not get stuck in rites, but to become really confident in what we're doing. And this was part of this study was a challenge for me to think through. What am I actually doing when I get in the pulpit? Because both of you and I benefit or talk to other pastors about this, and it just kind of kind of brushed off and that's fine. People can have different opinions. But to think through what what are we actually doing in the pulpit? What is our goal? This is all really good. And it's a value of, of historical theology and a value in Political Theology. I have a friend who just kind of every time we talk about homiletics, he just kind of brushes me off. And it's like, yeah, just not I want to hear actual servers. I don't want to talk about preaching sermons. Sure, but yeah, this stuff really matters. We should, we should think it through really carefully. And this would be, I think, a great place to start. The book itself, the whole book is, is really big, it's pretty expensive. I think it's 50 bucks. But if anybody from Cph is listening, they can talk to me, we'd love to this would be an interesting book to publish just as a as a booklet Walthers kind of masterclass on preaching. We can think it through then. We don't accept it all. uncritically, of course. But I think most people in our circles would be challenged by it.

Ben Phelps: 1:02:32

Yeah, and it's healthy, no matter what you're talking about to be to be challenged and to think things through that's that's where growth takes place. Right is when we're challenged. And yeah, it's it's kind of hard to, to argue against the logic of what he's doing or the historical Lutheranism that is he's he's imbibing or the biblical aspects of it. But might be might be some things. I'm wondering, do you have any critiques, if you criticisms of, you know, he's dead, he can't hear you. And if he can, he's, he's, he's got better things going on to worry about what you're going to say. So anything that I would say negative side, but like I said, a critique of Walters pastoral theology, especially this sermon section.

Unknown: 1:03:22

I really did think the sermon section was well done. While they're just not meeting my compliments, by any means. But yeah, it wasn't a full homiletics book. Obviously, it's just just a chapter in a pastoral theology book. But yeah, some of it's just a little archaic. He talks about Yeah, but before you start railing against dancing, as I said, make sure your people are well catechize to understand why dancing is a sin. Yeah, okay. Yeah, that's that's a little anachronistic possibly today, though. Maybe we could think through some of what happens in dancy today. Sure. And then, yeah, well, there's context he, he was consciously trying to do American do pastoral theology in an American context. But there are a few times I just was pretty clear, as I read it, he doesn't really get the free religious marketplace that we have in America, and just how different that was from a state church where people like you were the only show in town, very much not the case. And we've all had that in our churches, where you patiently lovingly practice church discipline and call somebody out on a sin and they just hop over to another church and the church, except Sam with pretty much open arms. Yeah, so that that kind of idea, it does affect our tone, how we talk to people or recognizing the marketplace that we're in. And then we're just assuming that today that the what the downside of the real danger today is secularism, it's that sort of approach that, you know, I'm my own God. Walter doesn't have a whole lot to say about that, at least in this section. And that's where modern preaching probably needs more of an apologetic slant to it as well. So maybe not criticisms, but ways that we would probably fill this fill in that his His teaching and His his approach today. Yeah, I think you brought up earlier. You know, is he

Ben Phelps: 1:05:27

Trying to be legalistic? Probably not. But I think you could read it in a certain way. Well, here are like the 50 rules you have to follow through a real sermon. If you start doing that, then yeah, that would be I don't know how you would not define that as legalism. But you know, take take his word should do this as a directive that's so much. You're condemned for it, although he does use that condemning language quite often. You know, in some of those instances, he says, if you're not doing this, you probably shouldn't feel feel guilty. So

Unknown: 1:05:57

talking about comfort and hope as a couple of times reading it, like I could use a little comfort and help. As I'm just reading this this book, not your survey, not in the sermon. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm very much related to that. Something in our, in our culture that does very much parallel, this is just how much good teaching is needed. We live in a world like we said, we're biblical knowledge has dropped off a cliff where people don't just assume that God's law is good. That's actually probably the number one problem people have with Christianity. It's not like even like the evidence for the truth. But even if it is true, is that good. All of that. Yeah, couldn't can easily get lost if we're taking a narrower approach to preaching that it's exposing sin and solving that wound with the gospel. This sort of, yeah, a steady diet of that. It's, I don't want to say like not good enough. But in my opinion, probably not good enough. We need more detailed exposition, we need more careful instruction of God's people. And then, especially, of course, when when the texts take us that way, when the text is leading us toward explicit needs some of those truths of the goodness of God's law, or how God wants us to live, or whatever the case may be.

Ben Phelps: 1:07:23

Now, that's doubt to me as I read, so maybe just kind of tie this into what we talked about last time, as I read Walters sermons, he had a sermon in there from Luke chapter two, talking about the Holy Family. And in my mind, I'm thinking, okay, preaching on the Holy Family, Jesus going to the temple in Jerusalem, when he's 12 years old, you know, a good Lutheran preacher should talk about the Lamb of God going to the temple, and he's very like on this course, to be our Savior. But while there started off his sermon by saying, I'm going to use the Holy Family, family, as an example for us, so parents know how to be good parents, and so children know how to obey their parents. And the whole sermon was on that. And you can now I can now see what he was doing. He was thinking through how are my people are going to know how to live Christian lives inside of their family. This is my chance to talk about it this year. So I'm going to lay out a whole bunch of details about how that works. Yeah, and I think, you know, the historians task now is to see his context and his tone. is he writing that saying, Hey, you guys are doing this? Right. Like, this is a whole new way of is he's not your I think you believe, I believe you're saying is this is kind of just a assumed thing. I can do this, this is a total, you know, he's is that getting defensive about it, or trying to push the envelope so to speak? That's just the way he's going to kind of preach one of these sermons. And as your last episode that we had common said would be shocking to many, many Lutheran preachers. So So what happened here, right, is that something changed as there was last time and now you got into the what was what was the assumption? What was the plan? Where was he coming from it and so many other Lutherans too, that that follow in his footsteps are preceded him?

Unknown: 1:09:13

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, this is more. Yeah, he's not he doesn't feel the need to justify that his sermons that sermons are based on a whole bunch of teaching. And like guides, people need to be exhorted to good works. Like we might possibly have to justify that sort of approach today, as we're talking with other Lutherans.

Ben Phelps: 1:09:34

Yeah, just.

Unknown: 1:09:36

Yeah. And then and then and then to see, I guess, to take one step further, that it's obvious to him not just in a vacuum, but obvious to him as an inheritor of the Lutheran homiletical tradition. He's taking. He's building his approach on what he has received from in front of him with this his point 300 years of history. So it's something again, we don't have to necessarily agree with if somebody thinks all this through and says, No, I don't I still don't buy it. That's fine. You don't have to do something just because Walter did it. Of course. But yeah, we we dismiss our fathers at our peril. If we just don't, that's our knee jerk reaction. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, I seen your notes here. I don't I don't know what this means recommended. wfs What is it

Ben Phelps: 1:10:27

But yeah, I guess it's kind of different. Now there's a podcast called word word. Oh, yeah. So they work through this entire book over the course of eight hour long episodes. If you've listened to that, and after listening to this, you'll probably see some parallels. That was one of my first roads into this, thinking a lot of these things through. Yeah, word fitly spoken and maybe cut you off there. But yeah, I've listened to them before even started the podcast. And well, or maybe around the same time, they're one of the guys right, feel guilty because I call this podcast, the Lutheran History podcast, when it shouldn't be just be a Lutheran History podcast that those guys have have covered a lot in the past. If you go on to our website for the Lutheran History podcast, on buds on Buzzsprout, they're in the recommended section, if you need a shortcut, as you're listening to this, to find them, of course, most of you know how to Google and find your own podcasts. You're on your own. But I got that linked for you on our website as well. All right, Scott, as we wrap up today, what are some areas of possible continuing research or any shoutouts you want to make to the broader audience today? No, you have a couple things to say on that. Yeah, I'm really appreciated talking with you about this band we've been, it's kinda a forbidden for me, because we both are kind of on separate tracks, but then realized a lot of the same truths. And then, when we got together, we had the sense of, Am I the only one who's recognizing that there's kind of a lack of congruence between historical Lutheran preaching and our approach today, and we both have come to a lot of the same conclusion. So I appreciate your work there. And obviously, it's a lot more careful, more careful work that work of a an actual historian, and not just the fan of history. But as as a fan of history and more of a fan of preaching, I've been putting together kind of a working bibliography of different things underneath that, that kind of thesis that I've been working with that are preaching has changed. And so I've got a pretty detailed bibliography. If anybody is just kind of dipping their toes into this want to do some more reading, they can contact me send me an email, I'd be happy to share that with them. And also a call for, for people if they know of any resources of that can be just sermons in general, but especially homiletics, books or essays, papers, whatever, whatever it might be. Please send that my way. I'd love to keep reading this, again, just my own personal growth and interest. All right, that's a that's a great shout out, we'll put your contact info that you want to be contacted through in the episode description. So as you're listening to that, if you want to get in touch with Pastor Scott hemorrhage here, and while you're doing it, you can convince him that he's not just a fan of of history, he is turning into a historian. He's just in denial of that. I don't know, man, if you're already building a bibliography, or it's it's some pretty, some pretty dedicated work there. But yeah, well, thank you for joining us today. It's been a good discussion, and hopefully, many people will find this edifying, if not at least interesting. Thank you, Ben. All right, a final shout out to everyone here. If you'd like to support the show, as Scott mentioned, without me asking him to we do have a patreon page. If you want to support the show. That way, there's some content including behind the scenes stuff. And some other things there. You could also support me directly from the website, or just follow us on Facebook. I personally don't really use Facebook that much. But that is a way to have a social media platform. In other news for us, as well, as I've mentioned in other episodes, but we did connect the podcast to YouTube now. So if you are one of those people who prefer to just sit with an open YouTube tab in the background, rather than your podcast, you can you can listen to this with with that going on as well. With that, thank you for listening to Lutheran History podcast.